Why the Quebec should be a country. Do you agree?

Why? There is a LOT of propaganda. Why is the fact that I say what I say makes me not able to say that there are conservative propaganda? I admit that every sides are using propaganda, but some more than others so...
and I don't care if some people don,t want to hear me say it, I'll say it when I see it lol

 

Maybe American medias have propaganda, but we don't have as much here in Canada.

 

My "hypocrisy"? That kinda makes me laugh. Why am I hypocrith for sayign truths? I don't want to be mean, but Canadians not living in the Quebec believe a lot of bullshit about the Quebec. The hypocrisy is coming not from me, but from the Federal.
And you can't deny that the USA is WAY WORSE in propaganda and fake news. At least, the Canada 'tries' to be honest. USA doesn't even try (their medias)

Canadian hypocrisy is tolerated, but apparently I'm an hypocrit because I don't like hypocrits.

Believe what you want, I don't care. You think I'm hypocrit, yet I've use logical arguments and not sophisms here

I love pussycat, but you saying she is right on all her positions doesn't make it true. Its your OPINION.
So, as I once was told here, add "IN MY OPINION" after that statement, please (I am joking, by the way)

 

Also, I like that Americans keep changing the topic to USA. But, guys, USA is not the center of the universe. Please, refrain from changing the topic, right?
If you just come here to insult, just pass your way and don't. I want cordial, logic debate, not insults

 

Canada can't change the voting rules without doing a referendum first, so... its not the same here

 

But anyway, I think that the Quebec becoming a country would solve a lot of problems. Canada would stop shitting on us, as we'd be another country. They would need to COMMUNICATE as EQUALS. That would settle the problems

 

The thing is, Canada is a Confederacy, and we CAN leave. There are no LAWS preventing us from leaving.
No, the animosity doesn't stem from the Quebec 'refusing to integrate', its about the Canada refusing to recognize us as EQUAL citizens. If we were considered equal, we may stop thinking about leaving. If Canada stopped sacrificing us in every trade deals, we might think about staying. Canada is NOT USA, we have more rules, to prevent abuse from the leader of the state.

Also, no Trudeau CAN'T change laws just like that. Its not like the USA, for the voting system. He isn't "all powerful", he has to obey the rules, the laws. So no, Trudeau CAN'T change the laws. He'd need a referendum to change how our elections are made. He cannot decide, all of a sudden, to change it. And, unlike USA, he cannot change some lands to put them into another electoral district to disadvantage some people

So yes, if 50%+1 of Quebec vote FOR independance, Canada cannot do anything about it, be it legally or morally. So would this hurt Canada? Yes, it would. So should Canada starts treating us like EQUAL citizens, then? Yes, they should.

 

But you forget to mention that before we had laws about protecting French, the english canadian bosses would just completely ignore the french canadians until they spoke in english. In their own province. Its a French province, after all.. So if you go to Germany, you learn German. If you go to Italy, you learn Italian. If you come to the Quebec, why not learn French? It won't hurt, and you'll only be more intelligent for so.
In fact, those that left did so because 1- too lazy to learn another language and 2- have no respect to those they used to boss around.

The REAL impact of Bill 101 was in EDUCATION. It never said people couldn't speak english. It just said that French was a worthy language too, and that French Canadians were ALLOWED to speak their own language at work. They didn,t have to just learn english. They could use THEIR language.
That's what many canadians don,t understand. The Language laws are not AGAINST english. It doesn,t say 'you can't speak english'. It just says "French is the main language, and those speaking french have the right to be served in French' The Language Law only says that "yes, you can write names and stuff in english, but write them in french too". So the "we fled to continue to speak english" argument is not the best one. They could still speak english. But they had to RESPECT french too.

So, no. What REALLY is holding Quebec back, its the xenophobic canadians that refuse to learn French, or to at least understand the situation of French, in a FRENCH province.

For the companies that left, many more were built. Companies OWNED by French Canadians. From the Quebec. Not companies owned by Ontarians. For once, the Quebec companies could be Quebecois. Which wasn't the case before, because Canada wanted to be the bosses and only speak english to their French Canadians 'servants'.

Also, for a province that's being hold back by itself, its still the main developper of Aerospace Technologies in Canada, its also renown for AI researches, for food, for culture, for its rich local industries now. But for once, these industries and companies are owned by locals. Is that bad?

 

When an American company builds installations in a spanish country, the employers learn Spanish to speak to their workers, right? So in the Quebec, why couldn't the bosses do that? Learn the local language?

 

Speak White” by Michèle Lalonde (1968)

"Speak white

It sounds so good when you
Speak of Paradise Lost
And of the gracious and anonymous profile that trembles In Shakespeare's sonnets

We're an uncultured stammering race
But we are not deaf to the genius of a language
Speak with the accent of Milton and Byron and Shelley and Keats Speak white
And forgive us our only answer
Being the raucous songs of our ancestors
And the sorrows of Nelligan

Speak white

Talk about this and that
Tell us about Magna Carta
Or the Lincoln Memorial
The grey charm of the Thames
The pink waters of the Potomac
Tell us about your traditions
As a people we don't really shine
But we're quite capable of appreciating All the significance of crumpets
Or the Boston Tea Party

But when you really speak white When you get down to brass tacks

To talk about gracious living And speak of standing in life And the Great Society
A bit stronger then, speak white Raise your foremen's voices We're a bit hard of hearing

We live too close to the machines
And we only hear the sound of our breathing over the tools.

Speak white and loud

So that we can hear you
From St-Henri to St-Domingue What an admirable tongue For hiring

Giving orders
Setting the time for working yourself to death And for the pause that refreshes
And invigorates the dollar

Speak white
Tell us that God is a great big shot
And that we're paid to trust him
Speak white
Talk to us about production profits and percentages Speak white
It's a rich language
For buying
But for selling
But for selling your soul
But for selling out

Ah!

Speak white
Big deal
But to tell you about
The eternity of a day on strike
To tell the story of
How a race of servants live
But for us to come home at night
At the time that the sun snuffs itself out over the backstreets But to tell you yes that the sun is setting yes
Every day of our lives to the east of your empires
There's nothing to match a language of swearwords
Our none-too-clean parlure
Greasy and oil-stained.

Speak white

Be easy in your words
We're a race that holds grudges But let's not criticize anyone For having a monopoly
On correcting language

In Shakespeare's soft tongue
With the accent of Longfellow
Speak a pure and atrociously white French
Like in Vietnam, like in the Congo
Speak impeccable German
A yellow star between your teeth
Speak Russian speak call to order speak repression

Speak white

It is a universal language
We were born to understand it With its teargas words
With its nightstick words

Speak white
Tell us again about Freedom and Democracy
We know that liberty is a black word
Just as poverty is black
And just as blood mixes with dust in the streets of Algiers And Little Rock

Speak white

From Westminster to Washington take it in turn Speak white like they do on Wall Street
White like they do in Watts
Be civilized

And understand us when we speak of circumstances When you ask us politely
How do you do
And we hear you say

We're doing all right We're doing fine
We
Are not alone

We know
That we are not alone"

 

I'll make a little scenario to help people understand.

Let's imagine we are all in Ontario. its an English province, with a minority of French population in it. Let's say, somehow, they take over all the companies and to government. Suddenly, everything is written in french everywhere. Suddenly, you have to speak french everywhere. At your job, to get services, at the hospital. Yet, you protest against it, saying "but most of us speak english, its not fair", right? You'd try to make the government make laws to defend english, right? And then, suddenly, the rest of Canada says you are racist for defending english, your language. Not fun, right?

And then, the Prime Minister of Canada says "if you want to enter illegally in Canada, do it THERE, in Ontario". Just like he did with Roxham, in the Quebec. And then, all the people that enter illegally in the country live in your province, and they learn French, but not english. And you pay for it. You wouldn't like that, right?

But here, Canada says its okay for the French Canadians to endure this in their own province, a French province. Justin Trudeau said to the world "If you want to enter illegally in Canada, do it at Roxham, in the Quebec". So now, the Quebec has to deal with illegal immigration, because of Trudeau, and we pay for it, and when they are 'ready' and 'processed', then they can go anywhere in Canada. But in the end, the Quebec paid for it all, because Trudeau said to enter illegally in Canada by that way.

 

I am shocked. I have never looked closer on canadian affairs. In this detail it has been a totally white spot in my knowlege. My idea, Canada would be an enlightning example in many things amongst the saxo-anglian world, has just puffed with a dull blow. I had never expected to get this kind of informati0n in that detial in a Forum about incest (*smile*). Just overviewing this discussion, details stripped, with so called "stomach emphasis", in canadian politics still seem to be a lot of a typical ancient kind of anglo-saxon-self-overestimation, combined without real interlinking with an other model represented by the french canadians - maybe quite similar to that in europe. That opens a lot of possibilites, non of them good. Just now, when I hear this kind of trouble, and again just picking up a stomach feeling, maybe People like Xi Jinping and Putin amongst others are right, saying democracies will not survive the 21st century, people are just not confident enough.

Merci beaucoup Mila, pour explicée tout ça trés plein, avec patience et lié en permanence à chaque variations de les repondres.

(Many thanks Mila for telling us all those details with patience and continuity along all those answers in between.)

A personal note to Mila: I have picked up quite some remarks about business and business english in this thread. This can be illustrative for a totally abstract way of looking onto the implications, that can result on a separation like the discussed in this thread. As a German, during my early youth, I did not understand, why the french needed a ministry for "the conservation of the french language" (I do not know the exact translation into english) for a long time. Sometimes this seemed to me like an administrative construction mentioned in darker german history elsewhere. Later, having spent much of my youth in a well educated and decent speaking english family, I do understand what degenerative effekt this so called business english has on the english language and subsequently on the less educated on minding things, very well. I do see and can describe the generative effect on the german language in the same way. Sometimes I really do whish other countries would have this kind of french ministry too, since the more simple structured could not implement those linguistic degenerations that easy. Looking on a further aspect, it is totally clear, that the concept of freedom, equalitiy, fraternity, does not correspond to a simplistic conept of promoting plain freedom into mulible situations. Even by saying exactly the same, each side is talking about something entirely different. If this simplistic concept is the main side message of business, done in the anglo-saxon way, it might proof totally devastating on the cultural level. To me, this difference between this simplistic understanding on the one side and combining freedom to equality and fraternity on the other, is presented more than clearly throughout the discussion above. In an abstraction on it, should this discussion be representative at all, one of the main resulting questions of course is, how long will the french polulation in canada continue to endure this difference? I reckon, if canada splits up for this kind of reason, it might be an ignition to many other similar situations throughout europe and maybe even other parts of the world. Thus inheriting the potential of changing political and financal global constructions in a way that democratic forms might vanish in deed. (Having in mind, that establishing the dollar as "the" leading currency results to a "causa singlula" in history, that is very difficult to tip over, but when it is tipped, anything can happen, effecting any financial construction we understand as granted today.) Then thereafter, the more simple minds in business could possibly be aware that they have to refer to russian, urdu, cantonese or any similar exotic language of their bosses all of a sudden and would be in heaven on thinking if it only would had been french. I hope deeply, this will never happen, but it is not impossible at all. (This is a very sophisticated theoretical construction without practical relevance for the time being and therefore was for Mila exclusively, since her argumentation in my understanding proofed her to be able to follow it in an abstract way. - "Everyone else, please do not let burden this your mind and follow your own way happily." - adoption to Meister Eckehardt)

 

I do not think this means the end of democracy, but I think it means that democracies need to evolve. In Canada, the 'majority' is acting like a tyrant, right now. If they would only try to understand the Quebec, and protect the Quebec culture rather than just spit on it.. If Canada would accept to COMMUNICATE as EQUALS rather than force their shitty trade deals on us. If Canada stopped to sacrifice the Quebec in the Trade Deals. If Canada worked WITH Quebec rather than AGAINST Quebec, the Confederacy could survive.
But the way its going right now only show the current FAILURE of the Canadian Confederacy

 

Mila, I do not think it either, I simply constructed a kind of worst case. But, cultural clashes are always full of dramatic changes. Of course the Quebecians will and should not have these things in mind. It is the anglo-saxon oriented majority, that should be thinking it over - generally no majority will, since if there are 100 convinced about something silly, the one who tells them it is silly tends to be rather excluded than being heard.

Nevertheless, what you describe is not freedom, it is tyranny in deed. That is, what has shocked me and exceeds the worst expectations of non business linked think-tanks in Europe about the effect of the anglo-saxon world of "hardcore capitalism", which is in fact a over developed sidekick of a ancient protestant development in a vanished country named Zähringen (even nowadays that kind of capitalism or capitalism as such still carries every aspect of religion, converted in things like "primus of the market", "the successor will prevail" etc.), whose followers originally were paid to leave Europe since they were recognized as critical destabilization of the political structures (even though they believed it was for them being protestants). The logic of treating the unsuccessful as minors, grounds mainly onto the original believe, that the successful are secretly promoted by God for their hidden good deeds and consequently the others are punished for their hidden bad, worse and worst deeds. If you leave God out of the concept, it directly leads to: the successful must have done something right, the others something (or even more) wrong and therefore have to submit to the successful. The successful being covert cheaters, thieves, traitors etc. is a red line throughout the capitalistic construction from the beginning. It was not established by purpose, but resulted on social restrictions being a valve to them and kept sticking to the system of refunding and reinvestment in individual economic activities.

My shocked reaction results in you describing that ancient stupidity and disbelief in detail taking place in modern society (allegedly without you knowing about it), and the majority answering in the same sceme and the same almost 300 year old scrap systematics. This taking place in a society, that is superficially recognized here in Europe as a better developed and therefore more trustful economic alternative to the USA. What this thread reveals, is the possibility that the "better" USA-impression solely grounds onto side-effects caused by the Quebecians, who pay a price that is unpayable in the long term.

I do not want to widen the discussion too far, but here in Europe we do have a similar time bomb running, mixed out of lack of historical knowledge, simplistic concepts and acceptance of the old overcome crap rebouncing back into Europe by "american"(=USA) companies, being recognized as something entirely fascinating new by some uneducated (in historical contexts) and with disgust (as revival of forgotten old crap) by others. In fact, this recent economic blast from "America" has resulted in a widespread evolution of the as well seemingly overcome idea of national identity and exclusion of strangers and foreign influxes amongst the lover educates populations, aiming at radical nationalistic ways and separational thinking. (Just to make the bridge to the present situation: these recent changes has to be understood as reference, when the Kremlin says, they are to fight national-socialism (Nazis) amongst western Europe, using it as an excuse for expanding their reign of influx across western Europe - at the moment by war.)

What will result in the construction of "Great Britain" braking apart, since the Scottish describe their situation similarly if one stripes the specific aspects and compare the residual rack? And there are further examples. A separation of Canada, a country on the solemny unified north american continent, where everything is totally shiny and a given example to the world (like it is promoted to many Europeans), could in fact inherit an ignition to further action in various totally unpredictable developments.

The evolution of democracies that is needed in my eyes without doubt, there you are totally and perfectly right and consistent with me, as far as I can see, must be grounding on a reformation of the economic processing and levelling down of what I have described as "hard-core capitalism" earlier, by reflecting about the blind issues of economics in various aspects (history, ecology, social interaction, ...). Only then we will have a convincing concept, unifiing stable majorities throughout the whole population of the western world against e.g. the russian predator-merchantilism (oligarch-construction) and can evolve as united communities arguing and having discourses on the same eye-level (like what you wish to see taking place amongst Canadians). Only I fear, this might be much to slow, if taking place at all, to stabilize Canada, when I read the discussion above.