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2nd Amendment

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Affairs' started by buffyfan, Apr 13, 2020.

  1. Janet

    Janet Trusted.Member

    Guns? What Guns? About the only guns available are .22 caliber and expensive center fire rifles, shotguns, and and handguns. Neighbor GF, whose SO is a "duck hunter" with a younger woman while I'm fucking her on weekends, told me he can't find a new shotgun to hunt ducks with.
     
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  2. Neophyte

    Neophyte Administrator Staff Member

     
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  3. Neophyte

    Neophyte Administrator Staff Member

  4. Brutus58

    Brutus58 Trusted.Member

    Very good and well said speech.
     
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  5. Orange1111

    Orange1111 Trusted Member

    Oh boy this will be fun. Gun control this stupid, almost every major ideology says that the restriction of guns is the restriction of freedom. Especially on the left, Marx wrote "under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered," and Orwell "that a rifle on the wall of the working-class flat or labourers cottage is the symbol of democracy". On two very opposite sides of leftism, there is an agreement that gun control is a bad idea, and as a leftist, I wholly agree. Any effort to restrict gun ownership needs to be frustrated at all costs.
     
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  6. D.C. Barnet

    D.C. Barnet Trusted.Member

    I think it goes to the idea of what "liberal" originally meant. Totally lost on 98% of Americans. If you say that you have values of "classic liberalism", most people on the left won't know (or acknowlege) what you are saying.
     
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  7. Rubber Ducky

    Rubber Ducky Trusted.Member

    As a European citizen, I can only wonder. The Constitution was ratified in 1788. That's almost 250 years ago. You could think it needs some redoing. My country has changed the constitution based on new insights. This was because something that did not exist when it was written, is very real now. The USA has clinged onto the 2nd amendment and NRA etc does everything it can to keep it that way.

    Now let's see what that did in 2020. With a population of 330 milion and a weekly average of half a killing per 100.000 inhabitants it is roughly 85.000 homocides yearly. I think that's a lot of collateral damage.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Brutus58

    Brutus58 Trusted.Member

    I don't remember who wrote this - "an armed society is a polite society". The more the Democrats disarm citizens, the higher the death rate. Also the thing that never is talked about (I don't know why) is that the second amendment is to protect the first. Already the Democrats and liberals support the first, as long as it's what they approve of. I think that if Hitler was alive today he would give them all medals. They have become more Nazi than anything else.
     
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  9. Rubber Ducky

    Rubber Ducky Trusted.Member

    “An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”is a quote from Robert A Heinlein. Born in 1907, died in 1988.

    If you would get onto Amazon Prime, and look for the series called "The man in the high castle", you would get an idea what would have happened if the USA lost the war, the Germans have occupied the east and the Japanese the west. Comparing the government of the USA with the Nazi regime, then you didn't understand what kind of regime the Nazis were. A Nazi government would get rid of all jews, homosexuals, lesbians, intelectuals and everyone who condones the regime. Since Adolf had the idea the übermensch was a blonde caucasian with blue eyes they would have murdered the black community also. Those storming the Capitol would be executed right then and there.

    Back to the topic : the right to carry arms has been there for over 200 years. I know for sure a large portion of the citisens do not carry a gun. There is a part that carry them (loaded I presume) who are responsible enough to use it only when needed for self defence. Leaves the rest : those carrying a loaded gun but not having the brain to be responsible. Or those not allowed to have one, but do since there are so many guns. Many get stolen and used in crime.

    Anyway, statistics show a problem. A lot of guns are not used responsibly and a lot of people get shot because of this. 85.000 actualy. Then you have two choices. Either you respect the 2nd amendment and accept the collateral, or you don't accept the death toll and do something about the 2nd amendment.

    I know one thing for sure. If I were to be citicen of the USA, I'd start my own business. I'd be making guns, ammo and coffins. ;)
     
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  10. Neophyte

    Neophyte Administrator Staff Member

    Your number of 85,000 homicides a year is wrong. The number you are using are the number of gun related deaths, not homicides. You need to remove gun related suicides, justified police shootings, self defense shooting, and gun related accidents. If you do an actual search on gun homicides in the year 2020, its about 14,000. Not quite the 85,000 you extrapolated.
     
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  11. Rubber Ducky

    Rubber Ducky Trusted.Member

    I found the figure on the web, it states weekly homocides per 100.000 city population. Whether the term homocide is used correctly, I cannot tell. One way or another, 85.000 people found themselves at the wrong end of the barrel and did not live to tell.

    Our police carries guns as well, there are regulations and periodic firing tests. If a suspect needs a bullet to stop him, shots are fired at the knees. It is maybe 2-3 times a year someone at the other end dies because police fired. If there are not many guns around, the amount of suicides by bullet is a lot less. We probably have more cases of death by train.

    The same goes for incidents and self defence shooting. The ample availability of guns causes them to be used more and using a gun usualy has deadly consequences.

    The point is this : holding on to the 2nd has it's consequences. The situation would have been different if the 2nd was changed a long time ago. It's too late now. This is what it is and 85.000 people found out the wrong way.
     
  12. Dane

    Dane Account Deleted

    It doesn't state how many on the back side of the barrel had their life saved because they were shooting in defense.

    [/QUOTE]Our police carries guns as well, there are regulations and periodic firing tests. If a suspect needs a bullet to stop him, shots are fired at the knees. It is maybe 2-3 times a year someone at the other end dies because police fired. If there are not many guns around, the amount of suicides by bullet is a lot less. We probably have more cases of death by train.[/QUOTE]

    Shooting at the knees or appendages instead of the center of body is the surest way to hit innocent bystanders. Nothing
    better than your law enforcers shooting at a small moving target. Please don't tell me they're that good of a shot, that only
    happens in the movies, never in real life.

    Suicides in 3/26/2-18, WHO data " Europe is the most suicidal region in the world"
    USA is 34th with the first 33 mainly being European, Africa, and South America countries, some who have the most
    restrictive gun laws.

    [/QUOTE]The same goes for incidents and self defence shooting. The ample availability of guns causes them to be used more and using a gun usualy has deadly consequences.[/QUOTE]

    Correct, but you don't state that the shooting in self defense end up with the evil doer dead instead of the victim.
    Same numbers of deaths, just the one deserving it ends up dead.

    [/QUOTE]The point is this : holding on to the 2nd has it's consequences. The situation would have been different if the 2nd was changed a long time ago. It's too late now. This is what it is and 85.000 people found out the wrong way.[/QUOTE]

    The consequences of the 2nd is that we as a country have armed citizens who can not only protect ourselves from evil doers,
    but also to stop a government if they try to enact a dictatorship.
    The 85,000 include a higher number of the criminals involved instead of a higher number of victims.
    (Look at Brazil, very restrictive gun laws, but a leading country in the number of assassinations of civilians by
    illegally armed citizens, to which, the law abiding citizen is unfairly vulnerable. )
     
  13. Rubber Ducky

    Rubber Ducky Trusted.Member

    I did not state anything about more or less suicides. Yes we have those. Unfortunately. I knew a few. The way they take their lives is different since a gun is not easy to come by.

    As stated, our officers shoot at the knees. You can argument that's wrong, but in one year maybe 2-5 people get shot at. The USA population is about 18 times as big as ours, you can do the math if it's comparable.

    For the gun related incidents, with an estimated 400-650 milion firearms around, you could think there are at least 2 firearms in each conflict. The wrongdoer (you've got to have something to threat) and the one defending (having one to defend themselves). Then it can go two ways. The defender has the better shot, killing the attacker, or the wrongdoer has a better shot, killing his victim. It is not a movie where the good guy always kills the bad guy.

    Stopping a government enacting a dictatorship is interesting. To me, the USA is a democracy. Politicians get chosen and a president cannot serve more than 2 terms. The complete electoral system has been the same for the past 200 years. They decide what's in the best interest, and you may not like it, but it has nothing to do with a dictatorship.

    I've only shown that the 2nd amendment has resulted in an enormous amount of firearms and incidents involving firearms. An estimated 85.000 cannot tell the tale. Some of those are criminals and we can't care less, some of those we do care about. Some save their ass by shooting an attacker, some are killed by the attacker. Some are killed due to law enforcement shooting, and some law enforcement is killed doing their job. Some kill themselves with a gun. Some people just were in the wrong place at the wrong time. In all those 85.000 cases, there is a bullet and a gun. And that seems to be completely acceptable.
     
  14. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Moderator Staff Member

    I remember reading somewhere that there are more gun issues in states with gun control than those without.
    It kind of follows political lines.

    States restricting guns, usually Democrat controlled, have more gun issues.
    Gun free zones tell the criminals where there will be unarmed potential victims.

    States allowing open carry, usually Republican controlled, have much fewer gun issues.
    The criminals know they are likely to meet armed resistance.
     
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  15. Neophyte

    Neophyte Administrator Staff Member

    Homicide rates in cities are different than the rates in the out lying areas. I just queried what was the homicide number in America for the year, I didn't get a number per 100,000 then multiply out. I also queried what was the homicide rate in Europe, not just gun deaths, but all deaths and the number was about 6,000 per year. So thats 6,000 compared to 14,000. Still higher in America, but the actual number is not that different when you consider that the populations are in the multiples of hundreds of millions.

    Also any police in America will tell you that shooting at the knees or leg area is the stupidest thing you could do. Anyone who would do this has absolutely no knowledge on how guns work or how to use them. This policy is made from complete ignorance.
     
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  16. itshot

    itshot Trusted.Member

    Pacific Northwest. We're open carry up here. Very little problems with guns. Next to Washington and Oregon.
     
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  17. Neophyte

    Neophyte Administrator Staff Member

    Back in the 1980's, San Francisco passed a law restricting carrying guns within the city. According to the law no-one would be able to possess a gun, unless it was visible to an outside observer, namely the police. As a result the only legal way to transport a gun was to wear it in a holster on your hip. The San Francisco City Council changed the law so quickly, you might have heard a sonic boom.
     
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  18. Brutus58

    Brutus58 Trusted.Member

    Curious as to the reason for changing the law?
     
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  19. Neophyte

    Neophyte Administrator Staff Member

    San Francisco changed the law to make it illegal to transport a gun in their city. They tried to make it if you are transporting a gun like in the trunk or in a lock box or any other way to safely move a gun, to be illegal. But the way they worded the law, it had a loophole, you could carry the gun in plain sight and be compliant with the law. So the only way to transport a gun in the city was to carry it on a open holster that you are wearing. They rescinded that law and were trying to pass a new law that would eliminate the loophole, when the state supreme court declared that municipalities did not have the authority to pass gun control regulations, it had to be passed at the state or federal level.
     
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  20. Bh5153

    Bh5153 Trusted.Member

    The reason why the United States is a free country is because of the 2nd Amendment. Our Constitution has stood for over 200 years is because our forefathers out the emphasis on people not government. The people are supposed to have the power, not some monarchy or other Government entity. That's why our politicians want to take it away from us so they can control us.
    People from other countries that want to educate us on why we shouldn't own should look no further than China or Russia where you can't own guns and if you speak out against the government you disappear and get executed.

    Freedom is Paramount. Freedom is everything.
     
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